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Trump's family, campaign chair met with Kremlin-linked lawyer shortly after nomination

Discussion in 'The NF Café' started by Catalyst75, Jul 8, 2017.

  1. Darkmatter The Villain from Two Worlds

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    >Trump Jr. admits he colluded with Russia on his Twitter account
    >Punished Pathos: "LOL YOU LIBTARDS ARE STILL PUSHING FOR THIS WITCH HUNT, STOP SPREADING FAKE NEWS"
     
  2. makeoutparadise I will have my revenge

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    Trump Jr meeting: Russia lobbyist confirms attendance
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40611619

    And then there's this asshole
     
  3. GaaraoftheDesert1 commemorating failure

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    I am done with the story, because some people are literally acting like brainwashed hysterical bitches everywhere, on both sides of the spectrum. Its preferable to wait for the american justice system to do its work instead of analyzing every little detail which leads nowhere. CNN and Fox News arent lawmakers.
     
  4. Perpetrator Rex Auto-correct made my user name.

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    So what is the consensus here on NF, do people think Trump did something foul in regards to all this Russia mess?
     
  5. makeoutparadise I will have my revenge

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    So they gave them documents too? no wonder they didn't talk much
    Russian Gave Trump's Son Folder With Information Damaging To Clinton: Report

    https://www.rferl.org/a/russian-gav...mation-damaging-hillary-clinton/28617669.html (https://www.rferl.org/a/russian-gave-trump-son-donald-jr-folder-information-damaging-hillary-clinton/28617669.html)

    OH and Russian Lawyer admits that she wasn't just a lawyer who was russian
    Russian Lawyer Whom Trump Jr. Met Says She Was in Contact With Top Russian Prosecutor
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/russia...ontact-with-top-russian-prosecutor-1500063809 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/russian-lawyer-who-trump-jr-met-says-she-was-in-contact-with-top-russian-prosecutor-1500063809)
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017 at 2:13 PM
  6. reiatsuflow Well-Known Member

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    I do, but there's worse things about the trump administration and this is probably being overstated. I'm of the impression that it's not unusual for foreign powers to help us candidates running for president. Maybe that help comes in the form of money. Maybe it's hacked email documents. I am not more outraged at Trump for taking hacked emails than I am Clinton for taking bloody money to fund her campaign. The spreading of propaganda on social media is no doubt a complicated danger, but it's not an act of war and it's not even really an attack on our democracy, and the trump administration feels more incompetent and slimy than treasonous.

    That russia uncovered dirt on one of our politicians doesn't make me want to doubledown on protecting our dirt from snooping foreign powers. It just reminds me that we need to clean up our political process so there's less dirt in the first place. The dirt is the problem. Not its exploitation.
     
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  7. Darkmatter The Villain from Two Worlds

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    Well, we do know Trump isn't really a clean person in terms of political and behavior. But as far as we know: we certainly don't have any solid evidence that Trump himself has ties to Russia; only parts of his administration (like Flynn, and now confirmed by Trump Jr himself).

    As for now, I'm considering Trump as "Innocent until proven guilty", but it certainly isn't something that should be brushed under the rug.
     
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  8. makeoutparadise I will have my revenge

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    He and his famliy keep changing their stories each time a new piece of information comes out or when they are faced with facts which is really annoying when you want to trust them or want to see them as honest

    the sad thing is this has become a left right thing so Trump was right when he said if he killed some one no one could stop him
     
  9. Kalondo Zephyrin Member

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    politics is foul and there is no Russia mess.
     
  10. Flow Yo Pierre,You wanna come out here???!

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    Many Trump apologist/loyalist have gone from "You have to understand, a lot of us just cared for our jobs, and didn't trust Hillary Clinton" to "NOPE. NOTHING TO SEE HERE. FAKE NEWS. MAGA. YOU GUYS ARENT GIVING HIM A CHANCE."

    I saw through that façade long ago. A lot of it was just partisan bullshit, and I can't believe I ate up that it was the 'majority of Trump voters that had no choice.'

    The fact that his numbers have only dwindled on account of the crap he's done says a lot about the Republican Party within the United States. Not the leadership, I mean the actual voters.
     
  11. stream Do something, Naruto!

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    In a sense, what happened is probably technically legal. It's just weird that a few years ago, it would have destroyed a politician to openly admit that their candidacy was supported behind the scene by Russia. In fact, it might still have destroyed a Democrat, or maybe a normal Republican. But Trump is anyway riding a wave of anti-establishment populism, so his supporters don't give a shit.
     
  12. Perpetrator Rex Auto-correct made my user name.

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    The consensus here seems pretty reasonable, then. What's going on aint right, but it aint the worst thing in the world, either. The story switching seems pretty damaging, though. I wonder if he can survive 4 years of this.

    What are folks thoughts on his insanely and historically low approval ratings in his 1st year? Not a big deal or a sign that he really shouldn't be there? Like something needs to be done to remove him due to his mass disapproval, that's what my teachers think.
     
  13. Nighty the Mighty I swim in outer space Super Moderator

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    too early for this question, ask again in a month or six, by then it should be clear whether it's systematic or whether trump can stabilise.
     
  14. stream Do something, Naruto!

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    Don't forget he still has a pretty high approval ratings among Republicans.
     
  15. wibisana still newbie

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    Honestly I am asking is this legal? I hear it is illegal according vox, but then again vox is left media

    If this illegal why nothing happened? At least Jr should face consequences

    Why nothing happened? I dont understand how law work in US tbh
     
  16. Nighty the Mighty I swim in outer space Super Moderator

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    the legality of it is murky and nobody has yet to uncover a case (that I've seen anyway) justifying it one way or another so in all honesty you would probably have to bring it before a court to get an iron clad ruling

    most of the debate is surrounding this law

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/11/110.20

    So let's break this down, what we're saying is that if it's illegal;

    Donald Trump Jr solicited, received or accepted (1) from a foreign national (2) a contribution (3) or donation (4) prohibited by paragraphs (b) through (d) of this section (5)

    (1) - This part is true as the law is written, there are three things here:
    (1a) - solicit: we would then have to get into the legal definition of solicit (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/11/300.2) as it applies to this act, on the face of it I'm not sure if DTJ counts as soliciting for this one. For the time being we can consider him not guilty of this.​
    (1b) - receive: this is where there's probably a divide between the left and right over whether DTJ actually got anything out of the meeting. Thus far, DTJ's saying that the meeting was a hoax and he didn't receive anything, it was just an excuse to get him in the room and complain about adoptions. That said there was allegedly a document exchange (we don't know what document afaik) and the trumps are known for lying so there's room here for that to be a lie. For the time being we can consider him not guilty of this.
    (1c) - accept: he's fucked on this one, the emails clearly show him (and kushner and iirc one other important person) accepting something.

    (2) - This part is true as the law is written, there are two things here:
    (2a) - foreign principle: Anyone behaving on the behalf of a foreign government is a foreign principle and therefore counts as a foreign national no matter what their status would otherwise be unless they are a US citizen which (I believe) the lawyer is not. We turn again to the chain of emails for evidence of this, it was known by DTJ that the information came by way of the russian government.​
    (2b) - Non-citizen, non-permanent residence: Anyone who isn't a citizen and doesn't have (lawful) permanent residence is a foreign national by definition, again I don't think the lawyer is a citizen and I don't think she has permanent residence though I could be wrong. In the end we can tick both these boxes though so it doesn't hugely matter.

    (3) - This is where things get difficult, what the fuck is a contribution? I don't know because the act doesn't define it and a google search isn't helping bring up a (seemingly relevant) legal definition.

    (4) - Things get even more difficult here because now we need to know what a donation is (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/11/300.2). The big question is whether "election intelligence" constitutes a "thing of value" in the eyes of the law since obviously it's not literal money or anything related to literal money. This is probably another place where there'll be a left-right divide, I'm not aware of any court cases testing the definition of this. If intel = donation then he's guility, if it doesn't then he isn't.

    (5) - This is basically specifying the nature of the crime, i.e. was it in relation to an election, a political comittee, a political party, office buildings, etc. Since this was clearly in connection to the 2016 election, this part is true without question.

    Revisiting our description:

    Donald Trump Jr solicited, received or accepted (1) from a foreign national (2) a contribution (3) or donation (4) prohibited by paragraphs (b) through (d) of this section (5)

    If the supposed intel on hillary is equivalent to either a contribution or a donation then it was illegal. If it doesn't then it wasn't. Donald Trump Jr has an important edge here though, this law was almost definitely written with the intent of curtailing exchanges of "money in some other form" i.e. an expensive car or a piece or art or something of that nature. Basically it's there to make sure people aren't getting paid and therefore potentially bribed by foreign governments when they run for political office in the US. The argument exists then that giving someone information is not really giving them money or anything of monetary value in the sense of a resale value.

    Also there's the nuclear option here of Trump issuing a presidential pardon if he really wants to.

    Really I have no idea if it was illegal or not to be brutally honest, it was definitely a breach of morals/ethics though, I'll leave it up to the actual experts to decide otherwise.
     
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  17. WorkingMoogle Well-Known Member

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    "Contribution" isn't defined because they wanted the courts to have flexibility to determine if something is a contribution with actual value rather than try to generate an artificial list that would likely have to change dramatically over time.

    And the reality is a lot of things are fuzzy as to whether they're really contributions of value. Suppose a person had a conversation about how to best organize a political campaign. One person's interpretation of this (assuming it was) would be a quick casual conversation about the nature of politics that wouldn't be subject to this sort of law. Another person would classify that as acting as an election consultant which could be assigned a monetary value (eg, if you hired them for this you'd pay $X/hr for their work).

    If this ever gets before a judge you can bet that the Democrats will be arguing that intelligence on an opponent would absolutely be the sort of thing that campaigns spend a LOT of money on and thus is of inherent value. Republicans would argue that a conversation about a candidate is not inherently valuable and nothing specific was provided (assuming more evidence doesn't come out between now and the hypothetical trial).
     
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  18. Nighty the Mighty I swim in outer space Super Moderator

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    hmmmmmm

    in that case the formalised nature of the event would be a thorn in their side I wager, hard to claim "haha it was just a friendly chat" when you had to set a meeting up about it in advance, that implies worth :pringles
     
  19. WorkingMoogle Well-Known Member

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    It gets uglier as it trips Constitutional issues of "but how can we restrict speech?"

    Really it would be interesting for it to go in front of a court as there's a bunch of Constitutional questions it could answer. Which is probably another reason why the courts would be hesitant to touch it.
     
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  20. makeoutparadise I will have my revenge

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  21. Son of Goku Doesn't need a Custom Title

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    The ‘Foreign Meddling’ Double-Standard
    Latest anti-Trump group is funded by foreign governments

    by Justin Raimondo (http://original.antiwar.com/author/justin/) Posted on July 19, 2017 (http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2017/07/18/foreign-meddling-double-standard/)

    We’re all supposed to be outraged by alleged Russian “meddling” in the 2016 election, despite the fact that no actual evidence (https://theintercept.com/2016/12/14/heres-the-public-evidence-russia-hacked-the-dnc-its-not-enough/) of such interference has been made public. First it was “17 intelligence agencies” supposedly confirmed that Moscow was behind the DNC/Podesta email releases, and then it was down to just three (http://freebeacon.com/national-security/new-york-times-associated-press-correct-claims-that-all-17-intelligence-agencies-agreed-on-russian-interference/) – with the National Security Agency modifying its judgment to “moderate confidence.” But the media continued to make this claim, as did the Democrats (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/rep-maxine-waters-incorrectly-claims-all-17-intelligence-agencies-concluded-russian-election-meddling/article/2628072) (or do I repeat myself?), and the conspiracy theorizing ploughed ahead. Yet the real meddling by foreigners in American politics has been ignored because it doesn’t identify the right targets.

    To begin with, there’s the anti-Trump “dossier (http://reason.com/blog/2017/01/10/hey-heres-that-obviously-fake-dossier-cl)” that contained salacious details about Donald Trump, a document obtained by Sen. John McCain (http://reason.com/blog/2017/07/16/mccain-and-the-trump-russia-dossier), delivered to the FBI, and eventually winding up as the subject of a White House “briefing.” This was compiled by one Christopher Steele (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-russia-christopher-steele-dossier-us-senate-intelligence-hotel-british-spy-mi6-evidence-a7608456.html), a “former” MI6 agent, and commissioned by the opposition research firm known as “Fusion GPS,” with the bill being paid by mysterious “donors.” Steele showed the dossier to a “British security official (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/christopher-steele-gave-trump-dossier-british-official-article-1.3116626)” before sending it off to McCain, and you can bet that the British intelligence organization knew everything about this dossier, and thoroughly approved, or else it wouldn’t have been put together and shopped around Washington in the first place.

    This dossier was the seed from which the “Russia-gate” investigation sprouted – oh, but that kind of foreign meddling is fine with our media and our political class, because it didn’t originate with an “adversary,” i.e. Russia. And speaking of “collusion,” the interplay between the Clinton campaign and the Ukrainian government (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ukraine-sabotage-trump-backfire-233446) to discredit Trump advisor Paul Manafort is also fine and dandy, because – again – the Ukrainians are the Good Guys, as opposed to those dastardly Russkies.

    Yet this is just the beginning of the story of how foreign governments have acted to intervene in our politics and undermine the Trump administration.

    I was interested to read a piece (https://theintercept.com/2017/07/17/with-new-d-c-policy-group-dems-continue-to-rehabilitate-and-unify-with-bush-era-neocons/?comments=1) [*] by Glenn Greenwald in The Intercept about the latest incarnation of the developing liberal-neoconservative merger, detailing the founding of a new group that calls itself the “Alliance to Secure Democracy.” This hybrid creature is a two-headed monster, with Clinton foreign policy honcho Laura Rosenberger, who served as a key figure in the Obama administration, and Jamie Fly, the neocons’ neocon, formerly with the now defunct Foreign Policy Initiative (the reincarnation of the infamous Project for a New American Century), at the helm.

    My readers will not be surprised by the union of neoconservatives and liberal internationalists, which has been documented in this space continuously not only during the recent presidential campaign but also predicted as far back as 1999 (https://twitter.com/JustinRaimondo/status/887008584348819463) (!). So no breaking news there.

    While left-leaning commentators like Greenwald are understandably upset that the Democratic party, and its ostensibly “liberal” wing, are canoodling with the neocons, and people like Paul Begala are ranting about how we should “bomb the KGB (https://twitter.com/ThatsMissThot2U/status/885687998280486912),” us libertarians – and also students of history – realize that this coming together merely replicates the history of the last cold war. Just Google “cold war liberalism,” Glenn.

    While reading Glenn’s piece, I noted a link to the Alliance to Secure Democracy’s web site (http://securingdemocracy.gmfus.org/), and later went back to click on it – and right there on the front page, in the upper left corner, are the initials “GMF.” These also appear under the Alliance’s logo. What the heck is this?, I wondered. I clicked – and wound up on the site of the German Marshall Fund of the US: indeed, the Marshall Fund site hosts the Alliance site. The headline reads: “’Alliance for Securing Democracy’ Launches at GMF (http://www.gmfus.org/press-releases/alliance-securing-democracy-launches-gmf).”

    Don’t be misled by the “of the US” appellation: the German Marshall Fund is an instrument of the German government, which has subsidized it (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/09/07/us/politics/foreign-government-contributions-to-nine-think-tanks.html?mcubz=2) to the tune of several million dollars since its founding. It has offices in eight countries, including the US. And it’s not just the Germans who are involved. Aside from the German Foreign Office, the donors include (http://www.gmfus.org/current-donors):

    • Sweden’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs ($500,000-999,000)
    • Japan’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs ($250,000-499,999)
    • Norway’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs ($250, 499,999)
    • Compagnia di San Paolo, a quasi-governmental association of Italian banking interests ($1,000,000-1,999,999)
    • The government of Montenegro ($100,000-249,999)
    • Belgium’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs ($100,000-249,999)
    • The Brussels Capital Region (the municipality of Brussels) ($100,000-249,999)
    • Latvia’s Ministry of Foreign Affirs ($100,000-249,999)
    • Romania’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs ($100,000-249,999)
    • United Kingdom Foreign and Commonwealth Office ($100,000-249,999)
    • Lithuania’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs ($50,000-99,999)
    • Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Office ($25,000-49,999)
    • France’s Ministry of Defense ($10,000-24,9999)
    And last, but hardly least, the US government contributes between $1 million and $2 million via the Department of Housing and Urban Development. Oh, and there’s one donor listed as “Anonymous,” whose contribution is “$2 million and beyond.” In addition, among the listed donors there are a number of foreign foundations and trade associations with links, including financial links, to their respective governments.

    The agenda of the Alliance is clear to anyone with eyes to see: when you go to their web site, the first thing you see under “Our Mission” is:

    “Finding out what happened in the United States in 2016 and the impact it had is important. But that is not enough.”

    Of course it isn’t: the goal is to get Trump out of the White House, and, in the process, conduct a witch-hunt on American soil that will root out “Russian influence,” i.e. anyone who opposes the new cold war,

    A puff piece (https://theintercept.com/2017/07/17/with-new-d-c-policy-group-dems-continue-to-rehabilitate-and-unify-with-bush-era-neocons/?comments=1#comments) by Josh Rogin in the Washington Post fails to mention the foreign funding issue, but does give us a clear indication of what the group’s real goals are: “mapping” alleged Russian infiltration of the US. Trump, of course, is at the center of that “map.” Rogin cites former top CIA official Mike Morell – who endorsed Mrs. Clinton and called (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/former-cia-chief-trump-is-russias-useful-fool/2016/11/03/cda42ffe-a1d5-11e6-8d63-3e0a660f1f04_story.html?utm_term=.c3458f94b883) Trump Putin’s “useful fool” – as saying:

    “In a perfect world, we would have a national commission that would be looking into exactly what happened, exactly what did the Russians do and what can we do as a nation to defend ourselves going forward and deter Putin from ever doing this again. We all know this is not going to happen, so things like the GMF effort are hugely important to fill the gap.”

    The Trump administration is hardly going to be setting up a “national commission” to overthrow itself, so foreign governments will “fill the gap.” In short, “The Resistance,” as the anti-Trump fanatics like to call themselves, is getting help from abroad, as well as from our own Deep State.

    What’s so astonishing is how brazen the whole thing is: the German Marshall Fund isn’t hiding its relationship with the “Alliance,” which will be headquartered in the Fund’s Washington digs. It says right there on the Alliance web site who is footing the bill. The scale of this kind of foreign meddling in American politics makes the Russians – who run two little-trafficked web sites, RT and Sputnik – look like a joke, which in large part they are.

    The very name of the Alliance to Secure Democracy speaks volumes– on whose behalf is our democracy being “secured”? We aren’t told – but a look at the long list of foreign funders tells the whole story. Our parasitic “allies,” who operate generous welfare states while we pay for their defense and risk war on their behalf, have every interest in “securing” a foreign policy that puts them first and America last. Their agenda isn’t hard to discern: one can go on the Alliance web site and listen to Ms. Rosenberger (http://www.snappytv.com/tc/5189995) accuse the President of the United States of “dereliction of duty,” while comparing him unfavorably to Angela Merkel.

    Although much of Trump’s “America First” foreign policy agenda – NATO is “obsolete,” foreign wars are a drain we can’t afford, etc. – has fallen by the wayside, the mere expression of such sentiments is enough to enrage the internationalists. That such a man is occupying the White House is an affront to them: they cannot let it stand. Their campaign to cleanse the American political landscape of such sentiments is the most comprehensive – and well-funded – effort by foreign entities on American soil to date.

    The “Alliance” is a regime change operation funded by foreign governments and corporate interests: its American servitors, such as Ms. Rosenberger and Mr. Fly, are seemingly exempt from having to register as foreign agents. Their immunity to the laws that govern the rest of us is a mystery, especially when one remembers that the current President of the United States pledged to neutralize the efforts of foreign lobbyists and start putting America first.

    These fifth columnists have to be held to account: they’re foreign agents, pure and simple, and should be treated as such. Why are they exempt from the Foreign Agents Registration Act?

    Yet registering them, and labeling them for what they are, isn’t enough. It’s long past time to get them out of our politics, and out of our country. This kind of brazen foreign meddling should be illegal. Foreign contributions to political campaigns are currently against the law: extending this principle to the post-election scene is the logical next step, and one that needs to be taken immediately.

    http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2017/07/18/foreign-meddling-double-standard/

    _______________________

    *
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017 at 11:46 AM
  22. Mael Well-Known Member

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    Sounds sensationalist and with yet another edgy anti-intervention vibe.

    Big ol' meh.
     
  23. Son of Goku Doesn't need a Custom Title

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    That fact that many countries (try to) meddle in other countries is only a 'sensation' to clueless people with entirely empty heads.
     
  24. Mael Well-Known Member

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    No this is just another tu quoque measure by you to mitigate the ongoing issue here. I get it. You like Russia and will defend Putin-sama because he sticks it to the West.
     
  25. Son of Goku Doesn't need a Custom Title

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    No, I just don't hate Russia, but you and your ilk do. Which is why you're not the least bit interested in hearing about anything that doesn't support your hatred.
     
  26. wibisana still newbie

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    OFC it is ok to meddle other nation country but not ok to get meddled innyour own country

    It is same with it is ok go take other people's food, but not ok to be taken by other
     

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